What do you think of Open Carry in the State of Texas?
I am hearing more and more attention paid to the open carry debate in the media. By and large the general negative thrust of what the media are saying is this.
1. More people carrying guns will result in an “Old West Mentality” with gun battles erupting from every minor disagreement.
2. Concealed Carry is a deterrent to crime in that the criminals have to guess whether or not you are carrying a gun.
3. Openly carrying a gun will make you a target for criminals.
4. They don’t want stupid people carrying guns.
To confront the first point head on we have the example of many other States in our great Nation that permit open carry of a firearm and we do not see that they have degenerated into a lawless society populated by steely eyed gunmen who are wide in the shoulders and narrow in the hips, who stand six foot tall in their sock feet, when they had socks that is. But I digress into a cheesy western novel, on to the next point.
Your average criminal doesn't even try to “guess” if you have a gun. Your average criminal is looking for someone who is distracted or unaware of their surroundings. If you look like an easy target then you are a target. If you seem somewhat alert and on guard the criminal will pass you by and pick an easier target. Having a concealed weapon does not in itself deter an attack. What deters a criminal is the fact that if you have gone to the trouble of legally carrying a firearm you probably have put some thought into being aware and alert to your surroundings. In effect you no longer look like an easy target.
The third objection gives common criminals a lot of credit they don’t deserve. If carrying a gun made you a target for criminals then there would be some evidence of attacks on person who are known to be armed. This just doesn’t happen. Think of a gun show, lots of people with guns walking to and from their vehicles, yet there are almost no attacks? Police officers work the streets every day but the instances of them being attacked for the purpose of disarming them are relatively rare.
You know, that last one, I don’t really relish stupid people carrying guns either. Unfortunately our society has not yet supported my plan to eradicate stupidity by letting ME choose who gets it. On a more serious note, we cannot legislate against the majority just because of a few idiots. The precedent shows that the vast majority of folks who decide to carry a firearm will act in a responsible manner. Yes, there will be some dummies that do stupid stuff with their guns but we have the means to deal with that. Besides, we let stupid people drive cars don’t we? If you do something stupid with a car we call it an “accident”. If you do something stupid with a gun we call it a crime and we put you in jail.
The last thing I have heard from people who are plainly afraid of guns and don’t want anything to do with them is this. “I live in a “good” area, I don’t go to “bad” places after dark, I lock my doors at home and in my car when I drive, I feel safe, I have an alarm, the police are there to protect me from harm, WE DON’T NEED ANY MORE OF THOSE SCARY GUNS.
These people are not willing to accept that their comfortable lives might not be so safe and secure. The statistics show that you will most likely know the person who commits a violent crime against you. You will most likely be at home or close to it in your “good” neighborhood. You will most likely have family members present or near by when it happens. And when it does happen you will have your mistaken belief in safety and security forcibly torn from you in the face of a brutal and harsh reality.
I have talked to some broken, violated and emotionally destroyed people who could do nothing but hope that their attacker would have mercy on them. They can no longer afford to believe that something else will protect them.
On the other hand I have talked to people who have fought back and won. These people are usually exhilarated to be alive and proud of their success in defending themselves or their family. These people do not suffer the same as the ones who could do nothing.
If the legislature can make it a little easier for good folks to protect themselves from harm I am all for it.
Zombieland Rule No. 4
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My excuse for wanting open carry in Texas is simple. It protects me from hit with a bunch of criminal charges should my T-shirt get caught by the wind while pushing a grocery cart, etc. According to my reading of the Texas codes, an "unintentional" open carry probably won't be cause for much more than a CowtownCop to tap me on the shoulder and tell me I was flapping in the breeze and needed to re-conceal. This theory will get me farther in Gilmer than in Houston, probably.
However, I can't really place trust in the good intent of every cop, sheriff, deputy, judge and prosecutor in the great state of Texas, or even in a smaller city, can I? Not when the penalty is some unknown list of criminal charges/convictions, confiscation of firearms, loss of permit, etc.
-Recent transplant from Atlanta
In contrast to the fears of accidental failure to conceal turning one into a criminal, this simply hasn't happened. There is currently a thread running over on the Texas CHL Forum website regarding this very issue, and only 2 cases have been found where someone was convicted of an intentional failure to conceal, and both involved the intentional display of a firearm for the purpose of intimidation. The law is the law, and for a charge to stick, it must be shown the the actor intentionally failed to conceal. That in and of itself is not an easy thing to do. A jacket or cover garment blowing open doesn't come close to qualifying.
You're welcome to read the thread for yourself here:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20529
If you're a Texas CHLer, you're more than welcome to join the forum and participate in the many discussions that go on there. There is a lot of very useful information there, and many well-informed helpful members that are a goldmine of information.
Incongruent, I've visited the forum and posted there as Nonleg in reference to SSN requirements for license issuance in the state.
Like I pointed out, and others there have, http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20529&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p233095 , the issue is that we can never be sure that we're safe from legal harassment until after we've been humiliated, maybe charged with phantom junk like disturbance of the peace, (in lieu of violating the intentional display part of the statute,) etc.
Coming from Georgia barely a month ago, I'm well aware of how NRA agendas or "efforts" can derail grassroots efforts, too.
Cowtown, if I could request you do a quick education session of what "probable cause" is and Terry stops to jLangton here:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20529&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p233012
Nobody seems to be addressing jLangton's concern, and it would be unfortunate for a largely baseless fear to propagate unchallenged.
Throwing around more recent Georgia knowledge (GeorgiaCarry.org!) again, particularly with regards to the mass panic that occurs during open carry (right before the trusty 1911 jumps out of the holster to fire at children and fluffy animals), I can offer resources and the personal experience of hundreds of people that have OC'd. This includes folks in gun "hostile" areas like Atlanta.
Basically, 911 dispatchers in friendly locales usually ask simple questions of the MWAG (man with a gun) caller such as, "What is the suspect doing?" "Uh, reading nutritional information on a box of Lucky Charms." In unfriendly locales (sometimes less than five miles away), they may roll units. Sometimes you will be monitored from the end of the Home Depot aisle by a Sheriff for a few minutes. One of our members, Mike316ATL, has been dropped and cuffed repeatedly by the same department, in the same county, that has been repeatedly informed of what probable cause actually means by multiple attorneys. Another was arrested, had his weapon confiscated and charged carrying a concealed weapon when someone across from the gas station across the street! saw his sidearm (license is required in GA for open or concealed carry.)
The vast, vast majority of open carry experiences, even in downtown Atlanta, are non events. Someone may call 911, if anyone notices (it's exceedingly rare that they do.)
Would I rather see training requirements dropped? Yep. Would I rather see a pretty firm pimp hand from the AG slap around people like Harris that seem to delay ad nauseum for any excuse they can dig up? Sure. But I also recognize that if you've got momentum on any issue that expands the rights or decreases the possibility of prosecution of lawful gun owners, you jump on that avalanche and hope you catch the one you want next year. Love the one you're with!
My bad on the dirty links :(
I'm fully in support of open carry, as we have here in AZ. I do, however, somewhat agree with argument 3: Openly carrying a gun will make you a target for criminals.
The context in which I envision it is different that your example. I don't expect criminals to see an openly armed citizen as an opportunity, and strike. Rather, in a situation where criminals have decided to knock over a convenience store, shoppers who are openly carrying will be the first neutralized.
Of course, the criminals may see more than one openly-carrying shopper and decide that it isn't worth the risk. That's a benefit. But I wouldn't want to count on that versus the advantage of surprise concealed carry provides.
Oregon, of all places, has unlicensed open carry, and it seems to have worked out just fine the thirty years I've lived here. I've never yet carried in a town, but I find it a useful option to have, especially in the country in the summer.
I'm continually surprised by even the small number of people on "our side" who oppose or won't support pro-freedom laws. As I see it, anything that expands the right to carry and the right to self defence is to the good, whether its something I personally expect to use or not.
Open carry would be a money saver. I'm jumping hoops in Colorado for a CCW and will spend upwards of $300. Being 6'1", 300 lbs, with a unfriendly face has kept me mostly free from criminal attack. That said, I am getting well into the Senior Citizen age and notice the punks are less intimidated. Physically I can't easily do what I once could and seek an equalizer.
I prefer to carry concealed however, I do not have a problem with other people carrying openly.
As long as the background checks are passed and appropiate classes are taken a person should have the right to carry in whatever way they see fit. It wont happen though, the banners will see to it.
The wrong crowd is taking over the reins of power.
I am all for open carry. At worst, it'll eliminate "failure to conceal" from the Texas Penal Code entirely, and at best, well, the Second Amendment does say something about keeping AND bearing arms, right?
It's good to see that several members of law enforcement are behind open carry. I wish everyone in the gun store circuit was as saavy. I saw a guy on the news in San Antonio drop the ball something fierce.
tweaker
Concealed carry is better, but I can't for the life of me see any reason to oppose open carry.
I approve of the open carry here in Texas, and hope it passes.
I see nothing but weak excuses from the complainants.
mrchuck in Gun Barrel City, TX.
1. Isn't that the exact same thing we heard when the concealed carry issue was being debated in '95? Did it materialize? Lame excuse anti-gunners.
2. Criminals are not creeping around in fear wondering if their victims have concealed handguns. When you consider the percentage of Texans that have a CHL, and then the percentage of those CHL holders that carry consistently, the chances of a criminal attacking a CHL holder are rare enough for him never to even consider it. Until a susbstantial percentage of the population start carrying, concealed weapons will NOT be a deterrent to crime.
3. It depends on the scenario. If a criminal is trolling the Walmart parking lot or ATMs looking for easy prey, the sight of a handgun will deter them. If the crazed gunman, intent of shooting up a mall, is standing behind you in the line at the food court, you're probably getting tagged first. 99% of the time, an openly carried firearm will protect you more than hurt you.
4. Neither do I. Mandate that only licensed people can carry both concealed and open. I don't prefer it (citizens should be allowed to arm themselves anytime/anywhere without the government stopping them) but if that's what it takes to get open carry instituted in Texas, so be it.
I have seen many people openly carry. Did I ever see it cause problems? No.
Do I know of any case in which open carry caused problems? Other than with a rep happy prosecutor, no.
Did open carry ever frighten anyone? Well, yes. I had to check some things at work and the local crips loved to hang out 75 feet or so from the front door. So I whipped on a belted holster as I left the house. When I got out of my truck a couple of do-raggers came running around the corner. When I cleared the truck door with my hand on a pistol and I am sure an ugly look on my face, the pair of them did a running about face and left. That was the last day anyone has hung out on the corner.
So open carry seldom worries anyone, and what worry there is would be less if the practice were more common.
The problems are usually on the part of the carrier and formally recognizing the right to openly carry would certainly help our efforts to stay safe.
And, when you need a gun you don't have time to call a cop.
So yes to concealed carry.
Pete Allen
I would refer those who say "OMG There'll be blood in the streets!" to Alaska and Vermont, where no permit is required. Where's the mayhem?
Chalk up another LEO that sees it as a non-issue. In fact, I really don't even understand the controversy because it's not unusual here in my location. To be perfectly honest, as a LEO, I'd prefer to see it as opposed to not see it. I just like to know if and where they are when it comes to guns. There's almost always a gun around here.
Just for the record, South Dakota has had open carry (without a permit) it's entire statehood. You do need a permit to carry concealed but it's "shall issue" and has been for quite a while. I've had a CHP continuously for 30 years, long before I was a LEO. The rules as to where/when(as in don't be drunk) you can carry here are the same for both modes of carry.
word verification: mantants, is that like zombies but only the male ones?
Absolutely I support open carry! For one, I think it’s a deterrent to crime- “Oh oh, this guys armed, maybe I don’t want to mess with him,” or “ Oh oh, there’s a WHOLE BUNCH of armed citizens here, maybe I better go elsewhere.”
And two, it’s easier and faster to draw an unconcealed gun. Ever have to fight a shirt, jacket, or whatever is concealing, to draw? I’ve grabbed a handful of shirt along with the pistol numerous times, and have nearly shot a hole in a shirt a time or two also. Granted, it was a timed exercise for qualification and I was “Under the gun” to draw and shoot. But still, when ya need it, and need it fast, I don’t want/need a shirt hanging things up. Or even worse, trying to draw from a belly pack.
An armed society is a polite society. Yes, I’m all for open carry.
Cheers,
Mark
When did Texas outlaw open carry? Or when did they start enforcing the laws?
I was stationed at Ft Hood in 1980-81 and every time I took my bike on the road, I carried a P-08 in a hip holster. When I would have to go to places that carry was forbidden, like banks, bars, and liquor stores, I would unload, fieldstrip the gun, handcuff the frame to the cycle, and put the barrel and magazine in my pocket.
I carried because I would sleep out on the road in the hill country, just the bike, me and the rattlesnakes - I was a young GI, and never worried about Texans not being friendly to me. I distinctly remember being told not to conceal a pistol, as that was illegal - but no one would hassle you if it was openly carried.
I remember walking into bars and seeing just about everyone wearing Texas sized sheath knives, and never heard of a knife fight, even in the Biker Bars.
So to hear that there is a debate over open carry in Texas, I get a strange disconnect.
Personally, open/concealed/whatever, I just wish that the number of people who carry responsibly quadrupled, some open, some closed, and we let up with the laws that have different penalties, depending on the tool that an animal uses when committing a crime. Finally, get rid of all this nonsense about insanity and such, and have a more reasonable standard. Was there any reason to believe that your life, person, or property were in jeopardy? Yes? Well, well done, might just want to work on your grouping next time. Or... No? Well, now we have a problem.
Oh well, just a dream. Particularly in Seattle...
Louisiana is an open carry state and always has been. Having lived here in North Louisiana all my life, I can state that open carry here is a non issue. If allowed in Texas it will be a non issue there also. In my 55 years I cannot recall one instance about any crime , shootout or victimization due to anyone open carrying.
I am from Wyoming and granted some areas of the state frown on open carry it never caused a problem where I lived although we did get strange looks from folks from back east when they walked into a gas station/store and found folks with pistols on their hips and I did open carry in Arizona without any problems.
Thank you very much for the well written article. I live in AZ so the thought of not being allowed to carry openly is a bit foreign to me.
That was an excellent post. And it's simply amazing the GFW attitude against the problem. Was it Heinlein that said "An armed society is a polite society"? Or how many others as well?
Oh, and we have open carry here in NM as well. I agree with the post above my first here. "You DON'T have open carry?" And then, as well, I look at Alaska and Vermont as mentioned. That's a whole lot closer to Constitutional, actually.
I live in California and open carry here has been reduced to carrying unloaded, worrying about law enforcement interactions and planning your open carry outings to make sure that you do not violate the "1000' from a school zone" law. The laws here are quite vicious and are aimed at giving the criminal an easier time.
Open carry was actually legal until the '60s when the Black Panthers stormed the Capitol with loaded guns. No one was shot, but the loaded open carry ban went into effect, making this law, in my eyes, a racist one. Hope is on the horizon, though, with the advent of the Heller decision and a California Supreme Court Case called NORDYKE possibly bringing the 2nd amendment via 14th amendment incorporation to our state.
Regardless of the social restrictions, however, I open carry my firearm every chance that I get. My adventures can be seen here:
http://caopencarry.blogspot.com
CARRY ON!
-N8
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